OT: Here we go again ...

[Philip J. Koenig]

On 20 Sep 2003 at 22:54, Joel Hammer boldly uttered: 

> Geez, they just arrested a Muslim army Chaplain (West Point Grad,
> Asian American, studied in Syria), who worked with the Muslims held in
> Cuba. They are seeing spies under every bed, now.


They say he had in his possession some incriminating documents.  We 
shall see.  (Or maybe not.  If they declare him an "enemy combatant" 
they could dice him up into little pieces and put him into a blender 
for all the public will be able to find out)


 
> BTW, a big difference between WWII and now is that German Americans were
> strongly and DEMONSTRABLY supportive of their American govt, unlike Muslim
> (Arab) Americans today.  For example, when FDR railroaded some incompetent
> German saboteurs to the electric chair, there was no outcry from German
> Americans. They supported the action. Today, if the US Govt decided to
> put to death a dozen Arabs for plotting industrial sabotage, after a
> quick trial by a military tribunal, imagine the outcry from you know who.


Who is "you know who"?  And why do they think they need to use a 
military tribunal instead of a regular court?  

I really really really don't think most islamic Americans are going 
to bitch if someone is convicted for really-and-truly trying to 
commit terrorist acts on US soil.

Nonetheless, I really don't think very many westerners, and 
particularly Americans, have much idea at all about why people from 
the Islamic world (or any other group of people the US has 
differences with) have such distrust of the US government.  There are 
many reasons, and lots of them are quite understandable.  Swallow 
your pride and stop your flag-waving for a minute and EDUCATE 
yourself on this.  How about starting here - read the first 2 at 
least:

http://www.rmbowman.com/ssn/longshort2.htm
http://www.rmbowman.com/ssn/terror3.htm
http://www.afghan-network.net/911/afghan-beeman.html
http://tinyurl.com/6tf6
http://www.monbiot.com/dsp_article.cfm?article_id=524
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0224-05.htm


More:
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/helenthomas/2101990/detail.html
http://www.cato.org/dailys/04-11-03.html
http://web.mid-day.com/news/nation/2003/april/49811.htm
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/633/fr2.htm
http://www.zmag.org/hermancover.htm



Results of recent Pew Research study on how favorably the USA is 
viewed in various countries:

Italy: 34%  (In 2002: 70%)
Britain: 48% (In 2002: 75%)
Spain: 14% (In 1999-2000: 50%)
France: 31% (In 2002: 63%)
Germany: 25% (In 2002: 61%)
Poland: 50% (In 2002: 79%)
Russia: 28% (In 2002: 61%)
Turkey: 12% (In 2002: 30%)




> You must realize that as a non-Muslim there is simply no reason not to kill
> you, in the minds of many devout Muslims. For example, I was speaking to a
> Pakistani female doctor recently. She said that there have been rare
> times in the USA when her ethnicity has caused some hurt to her due to
> discrimination. However, she said, if she went back to Pakistan with her
> "white husband" (her words, not mine), he would likely be attacked and
> killed on a public street. By, of course, people who consider themselves
> good Muslims.
> 
> There are many millions of such good Muslims.


Such "examples" are about as useful as characterizing the guys who go 
around assassinating family-planning doctors as "good christians", 
despite the fact that their Christian god said "thou shalt not kill".

I think this article is instructive on the brand of Islam that is on 
the rise, mostly for political reasons:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1634755.stm



> The inaction of the many other millions of Muslims who "oppose" violence
> is puzzling.  I suspect they are taking the same sort of pragmatic
> approach that the Swedes took in 1941. As the Swedish diplomat said,
> if the English win, we are Democrats. If the Germans win, we are Aryans.


I really think westerners, and Americans in particular, need to 
educate themselves a lot more about the world outside their own 
borders.  In particular the generations of exploitation that has gone 
on in the middle east by the west.  Perhaps then they will understand 
that these people who appear (based on biased western news reports, 
anyway) to be supporting such things, feel no differently than 
American soldiers who cheer while killing thousands of innocent 
civilians in Iraq, because they're on a "mission from God".  Some 
irony. (The Pope bitterly opposed the Iraq war, BTW) Americans in 
particular have shown they have little interest in self-reflection in 
these matters.


 
> Think about that, next time you are angry over your government's efforts
> to protect you.  You might be surprised at who your friends really are. For
> example, a lot of 60's kids who grew up despising the "pigs" (You know
> who you are.) came to rely upon the pigs for protection once they had
> something to protect.


A lot of grains of sand are purple too.  Doesn't mean they're visible 
when I go to the beach though.


 
> It is interesting to see how people, sometimes the same people, sing
> different tunes, depending on the situation. 


The hypocrisy in evidence within the current US administration is a 
good place to start.  Never in my lifetime have I witnessed so much 
of it.


> For example, many critics of
> Bush complain that Iraq may have freedom now, but what good is freedom
> without security?


People are assuming they have "freedom" eh?  Why... because the TV 
said so?  Freedom to starve?  Freedom to be attacked randomly?  
Freedom to be colonized?  Freedom to engage in a civil war?



> This is often repeated, and given credence by many
> prominent Americans. However, in this country, they complain about the
> slightest infringement of civil liberties. 


You cannot compare the social situation and expectations of a rich 
and fat country like the USA, to someplace like Iraq which has been 
under brutalizing conditions for many years since Bush I's first's 
military campaign over there. (not to mention Saddam's regime, whose 
human-rights record is well-known)

However prior to 1991, Iraq had the most well-developed national 
infrastructure and conveniences in the entire Middle East.  They are 
now firmly in the "3rd World" category, since they have not enough 
food to eat, medicines for hospitals, clean water, electricity, and 
so on.  Values and expectations vary dramatically when you don't even 
know where your next meal is going to come from.  Fat and spoiled 
Americans have a _really_ hard time, in general, understanding a lot 
of this.



> It is even more interesting
> that the infringements are especially irksome if carried out in the name
> of national security. Infringements in the the name of some favored cause,
> like conservation, campaign finance reform, diversity, abortion rights,
> gun control, etc., are much more tolerable.
> 
> Just something to think about.


Not particularly illuminating, if what you're trying to do is compare 
the USA and Iraq.  You cannot make direct comparisons between those 2 
places for (what should be, at least now) obvious reasons.


 
 

-- 
Philip J. Koenig                                       pjklist at ekahuna.com
Electric Kahuna Systems -- Computers & Communications for the New Millenium