gentoo - wow!! - progress

[Collins]

[ snips - to split up a very large topic ]

On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:46:39 -0400 dep <dep at linuxandmain.com> wrote:
> begin  Collins's  quote:

[ Slackware ]

> | An excellent choice, especially if you run xfce.  The install is
> | easy, and it seems to be pretty stable.  ...  My big problem with
> Slack or debian or ...  [is ]the necessry depth in its upgrade
> offerings.
> 
> well, i don't mind compiling my own stuff, so if there's a source 
> tarball i'm happy. an advantage to this is that i've experienced
> none of the kinds of desktop and application crashes that are often 
> reported, usually by people who just slapped in the rpm. and, of 
> course, source gives me far greater control -- allowing me, for 
> instance, to enforce the fhs here.
>

What, exactly, are the benefits to be gained from enforcing the fhs? 
gentoo has a mature interpretation of the fhs (there are nothing but
interpretations at present), installs in a very standard fashion from
tarballs, and it's very easy to introduce tarballs that haven't been
massaged by gentoo into the structure without breaking anything.

> | My much maligned (on
> | this group, at least) gentoo system has been continuously upgraded
> | for 2 years.
> 
> now, now now. that's unfair. your gentoo wasn't maligned, *you* 
> were.<g>

Right on.  Old trolls never die, they just thrive on abuse. <grin>

> 
> | (I did choose to reinstall once just to verify the
> | newer install procedure, but there was no other reason to do this.
> 
> | My system (in place since about March 2000) is the full equivalent
> | of a gentoo system installed yesterday.)  I'll stand corrected if
> | someone knows an easier to use maintenance system.
> 
> there are several, that if not easier are as easy or nearly so. red 
> hat's system does work (unless you also subscribe to red carpet, in 
> which case your hard drive becomes a battleground), ximian's system 
> does work (unless you subscribe to red hat's update service, in
> which case your hard drive becomes a battleground), suse's yast
> online update works well if you haven't screwed around with the
> system (which leaves me out, but i suspect that gentoo would behave
> in much the same way were someone to go in and put everything where
> it belongs instead of where gentoo puts it), and debian's system is 
> legendary.

You keep metioning "screw around with the system."  The beauty of the
current gentoo structure is the structure.  If you make even a minimal
effort to understand the structure, you can screw around with the
system to your heart's content without breaking anything.  Please
correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how dropping kde software
into /usr/kde/2/... or /usr/kde/3/... makes your system any better
than a system with kde in /opt/kde/2/... or /opt/kde/3/...  With
gentoo, I don't need to subscribe to red carpet or anthing else to
maintain my system.  The tools are built in, and my hard drive isn't a
battle ground.

> 
> it misses the point in another way, just as unitedlinux misses the 
> point: fragmentation of linux, and by this i mean the refusal to 
> stick to some standards, is a greater immediate peril to linux than 
> microsoft is. so adherence to what we might call "standard linux" is
> something that i think ought to be sought above pretty much anything
> else. 

Linux is fragmented in ways that even the new religion of fhs can't
fix.  You need only think about the competing desktops and the scads
of products that are bound to specific levels of library support.  I
submit that if you could wave your magic wand, convert all distros to
the same fhs file structure, etc., the fragmentation would not
disappear.  Linux is and always will be about choices, and I doubt
that linux will ever become the M$ monolith.

> gentoo, for all its technical goodness, does some things that 
> unfortunately toss it into the same pile as lindows -- the "novelty 
> distribution" category.
> 
> now, you disagree with me. unfortunately, if i'm right, the proof of
> that won't come until it's too late.

So, my hard drive will melt into the ground and I won't be able to
install one of the new blessed-by-you fhs distributions if I choose?
<grin>  I don't think so.

> 
> | 4) Nominal but not slavish adherance to FHS standards. 
> 
> again, see above. you may not believe that this matters, because you
> are happy with what you have. i believe that there will come a time 
> when you will see the importance of strict adherence to linux 
> standards, because otherwise linux will fragment into oblivion, 
> leaving users, among them gentoo users, in the same boat with beos 
> users. or old-line unix users.
> 

Somehow I doubt this apocalyptic "end of linux" will happen, unless
Bill Gates manages to outlaw the whole thing.  When linux is outlawed,
only outlaws will have linux, etc.  Old-line unix users have a clear
upgrade path to linux.  Granted there are a few commercial packages,
they would have to do without.  I can't comment on BeOS, having neve
tried it.

> | 8) Did I mention free?
> 
> well, your case for universal adoption of debian is now complete.

Yes indeed, ancient software on ancient hardware.  Should be the ideal
world for you as outlined above. <grin> 

-- 
Collins Richey - Denver Area - WWTLRD?
gentoo(since 01/01/01) 2.4.18+(ext3) xfce-sylpheed-mozilla